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 Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?

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Arthainius
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 1:02 pm

Faarao wrote:
Arthainius wrote:
I honestly cant remember the last time all my buffs went out (which shouldn't be hard at 70% chance)
16,8% for 5/5 buffs, every 6th battle or so in a large sample size.


Wait your telling me that to get 5/5 buffs (that are all 70% chance) is only 16.8% .... I need you to show your work on that math.
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 1:34 pm

@pug

I disagree with you saying that defense is blown away by attack and agil. Up until this last pvp competition I believed the same you did, until I took the event off, and let a few friends borrow some of my top mercs for the competition. I let one friend borrow part of my "strong" line and my brother borrow my "B-team" figuring my brother had much less resources so his chances of actually getting a lethal were slim to begin with, so might as well let my other buddy get the best shot possible.

Long story short, my brother used that team to set up a defense oriented lineup of blue-golem-odin-moreo-canis and his loss count for the entire week could be counted on his fingers. 2 of 3 buffs, in pretty much any combination meant he could not physically lose, except to bosshustler, ryback, or strap. and they were easy enough to avoid. He got his pvp lethal spending 130 ammo mags and lvling his leader from 7-80.

The other friend had about 600 mags and 80 cans saved up, was running a lineup with mutliple lethals that are very very high on that agil tier list you spoke of (hanzox2,) and struggled all competition long, despite having the "better" team.

In the end both got a lethal, but it cost my friend 600 mags and all but 14 of his cans, as well as disciplined use of around 20 hours a day natural regen (he just had a baby, doesn't sleep much). It cost my brother 130 ammo, 73 level ups, and only moderate clock watching for natural regen.

Don't think that only one strategy works. There are always going to be flavor of the month teams that are hard to beat. But there is always a team out there that can crush that one. Go get creative and discover it, rather than complain that it can't be done.
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 1:40 pm

Arthainius wrote:
Faarao wrote:
Arthainius wrote:
I honestly cant remember the last time all my buffs went out (which shouldn't be hard at 70% chance)
16,8% for 5/5 buffs, every 6th battle or so in a large sample size.


Wait your telling me that to get 5/5 buffs (that are all 70% chance) is only 16.8% .... I need you to show your work on that math.
Take a dice. Let's say numbers from 3-6 mean your buff procs. Numbers 1 and 2 mean your buff did not proc. How many times in a row are you going to avoid number 1 and 2? Chance for 3-6 is 66,67% which is quite close to 70% buff rate in game. Have fun rabbit

Edit: Just for fun throw the dice five times per set. Throw 10 complete sets (don't start a new set if you throw 1 or2, keep throwing the whole 5-set before next 5-set). In how many sets you avoided 1 and 2 completely? My result was in 2 out of 10.
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 5:36 pm

mamoncrief wrote:
snip, defense team
Actually that team is one I'm going for but can't say I'll have in the near future because of how unique and expensive the particular components are. It is one of the only comps that goes against the mean, though the parallel is not far off in that it still relies on 3/5 of the top buffers, and two guys who deal huge burst of damage on the opponent's turn. Look at poison/burn/bleed, weaken, heals, next turn damage, debuffers, and even stuns/silence. There's no mercs that utilize them where they act fast enough or strong enough and they end up being fifth wheels. Also, I'm not complaining; I brought this up for discussion because I think the game can be better than it is (but thanks for the rhetoric of putting words in my mouth. clown).

Art, the math is %70^5 = %16.8. For two events to occur at the same time, it's the chance that of one happening and the chance of the second happening (.7*.7 for instance) and then extrapolated to 5 in this example.
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 6:15 pm

MRPUG looks like u are whining and complaining too much . Go play something else. These players are giving u good reasons and u come up with every little excuse about the game. ……
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 8:49 pm

Lol'd
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 9:38 pm

Seriously... The game will not change to cater to you alone. Nor will it change to give free players an easier in on top ranks.

Here's a quote from Albert Einstein - LEARN THE RULES OF THE GAME, AND PLAY IT BETTER THAN ANYONE ELSE

The basis of the game is a competitive one. How fun would it be to watch or play sports if every team was balanced and equal and star players had to be handicapped...

This is the problem with the "everybody gets a trophy for playing" concept...
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 10:30 pm

I don't know paint. You should ask Lakers fans haha
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 11:38 pm

Only winners get trophies. The rest of you get a ribbon! Now sit down and simma down!

lol
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 9th 2013, 11:51 pm

mrpug wrote:
mamoncrief wrote:
snip, defense team
Look at poison/burn/bleed, weaken, heals, next turn damage, debuffers, and even stuns/silence. There's no mercs that utilize them where they act fast enough or strong enough and they end up being fifth wheels.
This is far from the truth btw

Yes, they tend to be expensive mercs, but that's because their price reflects their strength...

Obviously you're never going to find high powered mercs being traded cheap.... That's common sense I don't even feel the need to explain why...
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 1:54 am

This is why the Olympic Games are so unique. Athletes that are good enough to represent their nation are proud of their accomplishment whether they get to be on the top of the podium or come in last.  That because it's the Olympics, and even there the best performance is awarded with Gold, Silver & Bronze medals.

Personally any rewards from the game are awesome, whether it's from one of the events or from a generous soul that chooses to share from their abundance.  Maybe if this thread headed that direction we could revisit nerfs, and sand-bagging, fake players, criminals we should shun, and a variety of other unnamed bad behaviors.

I can gripe with the best in here, but I'd rather build something up because tearing down leaves you with a pile of rubble staring at a terminal, alone.

Live joyfully!
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:05 am

This game is based on variety. As in any other card game there will be players with stronger decks, but they arent invincible. There will always be strategies to trump other players, you just need to actively search and create them. Balance is found in playing cards with casino decks. Strategy is found inplaying cards with collectible card games (I.e magic the gathering, pokemon lol, and the like)

That being said if you don't see enough viable strategy in this game you aren't looking hard enough.

Even if New inflated mercs came out how cheap do you think they'd be? And who do you think would be the player base that collects all of them?
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:21 am

Paintballer, your interpretation of my comments has been off-topic in every reply you've had in this thread. There's no place I commented there should be high-powered mercs trading for cheap. The only thing I mentioned is that I am going for an almost similar defense team but it will take me a while to get the commodities to trade for it.

I also acknowledged that mamoncrief's defense team is a good counterpoint to the standard team comp and actually enjoyed his post... but what's wrong with asking how it isn't a similar mold with 3/5 buffers and damage multipliers (just occurring on the opponent's turn)? A bleed/stunlock team would be a completely different approach, as would a debuff/heal/def team.

I mentioned the rest of those skill types taking a backseat and paint replied it's "far from the truth" -of all those other skill types I mentioned, how many appear in the top two tiers of the tier list?

Again, I don't care about "how to win" which you guys seem to keep bringing up as a focal point. I thought it would be interesting to talk about how the game could be if it was less about min-maxing buffs + damage multipliers and more about tactical variety. Yet it seems the same people feel compelled to defend their own paranoia and even be derogatory. My first derogatory comment back? Work on your reading comprehension. No one is assaulting your "how to win" culture or changing the status quo.

cheers Here's an e-peen measuring stick, do some of you guys need it?
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:32 am

Well all I have left to say is maybe, just maybe, my responses aren't being interpreted as I intend them to as well Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:34 am

If you think strategy is limited, then look a little harder Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:36 am

Also I just wanted to add that when you look at every major game out there, there are always maximized strategies (starcraft, wow, etc) but devs work on generating balance. The reason isn't to make everyone a winner; it's generating a platform of choice because choosing, outcome, and response is the staple fun cycle. Winners will always find a way rise to the top. I was interested in talking about a platform of more choices because I believed it would lead to more fun. Not about how to make everyone a winner.

Yes I agree there are variations between optimal teams, but I still stand by my comment that the variations fall into limited categorical team compositions. Other than the turtle buff team, please post one if you think otherwise! That's the lack of choice in the game.

Getting back to the original topic, I do believe you will see (or we are seeing) stat inflation happen anyways. It's probably the most natural course from a developer/publisher perspective to generate continued interest in the game and healthy revenue.


Last edited by mrpug on August 10th 2013, 2:40 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:38 am

As stated earlier ur being quite dismissive of valid info that's not "off topic"
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:41 am

My first PvP lethal was easily won with a blended team.
Nalac-prim-bf-tigrey-eve

It played on strong auto attack and high wis dmg, where they met in the middle on a merc with each
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:43 am

All could do fine unbuffed with naturally high stats. But when buffed they were all ohko procs
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 2:45 am

Or were we focusing on raid squads...
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 3:33 am

Paint, forgive my ignorance - what is "OHKO"?
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 3:34 am

One hit knockout
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 3:37 am

Oh, Embarassed 

Something the lower teams dream of having, and dread coming up against.

Just an ID10T error. Some of the TLA's & FLA's are just unfamiliar. Thanks for the help with this FLA (4 letter acronym)
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 3:40 am

It's cool, I think many people here have individual game jargon based on their gaming preferences. Urban dictionary can be quite helpful to learn them if you come across something unfamiliar
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 4:13 am

mrpug wrote:
Paintballer, your interpretation of my comments has been off-topic in every reply you've had in this thread. There's no place I commented there should be high-powered mercs trading for cheap. The only thing I mentioned is that I am going for an almost similar defense team but it will take me a while to get the commodities to trade for it.

I also acknowledged that mamoncrief's defense team is a good counterpoint to the standard team comp and actually enjoyed his post... but what's wrong with asking how it isn't a similar mold with 3/5 buffers and damage multipliers (just occurring on the opponent's turn)? A bleed/stunlock team would be a completely different approach, as would a debuff/heal/def team.

I mentioned the rest of those skill types taking a backseat and paint replied it's "far from the truth" -of all those other skill types I mentioned, how many appear in the top two tiers of the tier list?

Again, I don't care about "how to win" which you guys seem to keep bringing up as a focal point. I thought it would be interesting to talk about how the game could be if it was less about min-maxing buffs + damage multipliers and more about tactical variety. Yet it seems the same people feel compelled to defend their own paranoia and even be derogatory. My first derogatory comment back? Work on your reading comprehension. No one is assaulting your "how to win" culture or changing the status quo.

cheers Here's an e-peen measuring stick, do some of you guys need it?
If I've offended you in some way I'm sorry but damn dude u couldv sent me that in a PM....

Also incinerate, vibriss, Mac ragged, swift nox, I could continue
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 5:25 am

mrpug wrote:
Also I just wanted to add that when you look at every major game out there, there are always maximized strategies (starcraft, wow, etc) but devs work on generating balance. The reason isn't to make everyone a winner; it's generating a platform of choice because choosing, outcome, and response is the staple fun cycle. Winners will always find a way rise to the top. I was interested in talking about a platform of more choices because I believed it would lead to more fun. Not about how to make everyone a winner.

Yes I agree there are variations between optimal teams, but I still stand by my comment that the variations fall into limited categorical team compositions. Other than the turtle buff team, please post one if you think otherwise! That's the lack of choice in the game.

Getting back to the original topic, I do believe you will see (or we are seeing) stat inflation happen anyways. It's probably the most natural course from a developer/publisher perspective to generate continued interest in the game and healthy revenue.
Also this is a collectible trading card game. To compare it with MMORPG is like comparing apples and ice cream
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 6:35 pm

paintballer58 wrote:

If I've offended you in some way I'm sorry but damn dude u couldv sent me that in a PM....
Haha no worries; I like the commentary overall but there's been too many times people insinuate it's just complaining, go off about winning, "tools to win", etc.; of course I'm going to respond to that Smile. Respect this response and see you on the battlefield afro
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 10th 2013, 7:27 pm

If it is variety you are craving, I think this current tower boss is an awesome example of how that can be done. His skill shuts down a LOT of teams that rely on nuke/proc's in order to win. 3 hits, decent damage, 100% to silence, all wrapped up in a package of completely viable stats for any event or situation.

AND to boot, he is available, to anyone, for the low, low cost of a little bit of luck.

I think that the problem with status modifiers in this game, like you have mentioned, is that they could benefit from a buff. Lockdown is a great example of this. He has good stats, a good skill, and overall is a well put together hit. But that stun! I am lucky if it stuns one of the 5 guys his skill hits on any attack. It just isn't worth putting him in there over someone with more damage because his utility is nerfed by a low proc rate.

IMO anything with a chain proc neceisty is absolute garbage. IE- Yay, I hit the 30% chance to proc my skill, but now I have to roll ANOTHER 30% chance to proc this status. This isn't pokemon. Battles aren't going on for mutliple rounds at a snails pace letting you strategically choose when and where to use status effects. I feel like all status effects should be like the tower boss - 100% effect. Or at least 70% chance, in the case of a guy like lockdown who hits all enemies and can apply that status to everyone.

Poison is kinda broken, super strong in raid and to a lesser extent tower, utterly pointless everywhere else.

Same thing with those "X hits which reduce X stat" skills. Pretty useless, all in all, because debuffs matter less from a statistical standpoint than buffs. They are all good ideas, but in order for it to be usefull, they would need to massively up the modifier to the point where it is actually noticeable. (which is how I feel about pretty much the entire debuff system)
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 11th 2013, 8:32 am

I think all preround attacks, debuffs, buffs should happen at same time and Agi should determine who's buffing and debuffing first.

Ex : my bluebot buff goes to me first but if enemy bluebot has higher agi then his blue bot buffs first. Having entire battle based off agi would change the outcome of fights alot and be more fair. Being able to buff/debuff first is too much of an advantage.
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   August 13th 2013, 3:11 am

They edge out of the advantage of being able to buff first by amping up the opponents proc rate. Or maybe that's only me, but it seems like there is rarely a round where if the enemy gets a turn they don't proc 3-4 of 5 skills against me.
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PostSubject: Re: Game balance: Nerfs, Stat Inflation, New skills?   October 11th 2013, 5:42 pm

Just thought it was an appropriate time to bump this old thread.  

Dakota tried new skills and some stat inflation. But it looks like they also went ahead with a massive nerf to old mercs. Talk about throwing loyal players under the bus!
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