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lginn2003
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PostSubject: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 6:54 am

all rares leveled to 70

Rare v1 (source)
Rare v1 put crystal on this one, and use this one as the evo this one disappears

Rare v1 (source)
Rare v1 put crystal on this one, and use this one as the evo this one disappears


Rare v1 (source)
Rare v1 put crystal on this one, and use this one as the evo this one disappears


Rare v1 (source)
Rare v1 put crystal on this one, and use this one as the evo this one disappears


Then you have
Rare v2
Rare V2  put crystals on this one, and use it as the evo this one disappears


Rare v2
Rare V2 put crystals on this one, and use it as the evo this one disappears

both epics are leveled to 99

Epic v1
Epic v1  put crystals on this one and use it as the evo this one disappears

Epic v2 add crystals


Now you have an Epic v2 pope? Is that correct.


Last edited by lginn2003 on September 6th 2013, 7:35 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 7:25 am

I'm struggling to follow that.

POPE is really easy.

1. Fully crystalize 8 R1s
2. Do whatever you do for a PE.

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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 7:34 am

isnt that the same thing tho
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 7:47 am

After re reading it again I get how you are trying to explain it and you are right. You may as well simplify it by saying to crystalize all rares at the start as well.

I have my own silly thing where I never lvl a source as especially in doing an OPE 200 it means I don't get mixed up with where the crystals are.

I am assuming you are going to POPE a shapeshifter?
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 7:48 am

That is incorrect dan. I posted the formula in the other thread.

The later the put in crystals, the more value you get out of it.

First 50 nets you 500.
Next 150 nets you 150.
Next 150 nets you 15.
Last 50 nets you 1 or 0.

Because you can only crystal once, you crystal as late as possible. That is why you get 10%, then 10% of 10%, etc. When you crystal all 8 r1s, you are getting a fraction of the 500. Make sense?
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 9:01 am

Ok sipusly how many threads need to be created ro discuss same thing guys??

Cmon on
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 9:09 am

Its real simple you crystal every source and never the seed. Level all the mercs first then do as i stated above. The stickie explains it very detailed
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 9:58 am

aceslifebegins wrote:
Its real simple you crystal every source and never the seed. Level all the mercs first then do as i stated above. The stickie explains it very detailed
So basically I just fucked up my Shellstinger by crystalising Target & Seed ..
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:03 am

Why would you not crystallize the seed? You have to for a perfect OPE. 400 crystals. 50 into every one of the 8 mercs needed to make a perfect 8/400. It doesn't matter at which point you crystallize the seed.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:11 am

Legend if you take two crystalized mercs and evolve them together you can no longer crystalize. You do NOT crystal all 8 at the beginning. You crystal 4...thats 200 crystals. Then with the four rare2's you have left you crystal two of them, which is now 300 crystals. Now evolve those final four, one crystaled into a not crystaled now you have two Epic 3*. You now level them both to 99 and crystal one of the two which brings crystal count to 350. Now you evolve your final two pieces and then crystalize the final piece.

Thats a 8-1 pope sir, a correct one
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:13 am

And fresh if you crystal'd them both and evolved them then yes you screwed it up and you would have noticed because it would have shown you some negative numbers while it was pulling the 10%.

You always use the merc with the highest stats as your seed never the target.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:15 am

And legend i have a 8-1 pe knuckledriver i thought was pope till i evolved two crystaled mercs on accident and lost like 300 stat points on my categories.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:18 am

The only time it doesn't actually matter is on the final e3* and e3* evolution. You can crystal them both as opposed to waiting till after for final 50 crystals.

I couldn't figure out why I was having -300, -200 and stuff showing while it was evolving and at the end i was a couple hundred short.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:22 am

Thats what i was running into anyway. I then just found it easier to remember crystals always the seed. The one you want to take 10% of the stats from is the highest one....the crystal'd one
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:27 am

Yeah i realize it shouldn't make any difference but for whatever reason it works that way and thats why there is so much confusion. I've had many people ask me to explain it to them and doing it that way they seem to understand and not have any problems.

I wish i could say i understand it 100% but nope I just know how to do it without f'ing things up anymore lol
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:29 am

And now doing it the way of the guide fresh ran into one of the many uh oh moments.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:40 am

fingers seem happy today ace Wink
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:43 am

aceslifebegins wrote:
Legend if you take two crystalized mercs and evolve them together you can no longer crystalize. You do NOT crystal all 8 at the beginning. You crystal 4...thats 200 crystals.  Then with the four rare2's you have left you crystal two of them, which is now 300 crystals. Now evolve those final four, one crystaled into a not crystaled now you have two Epic 3*. You now level them both to 99 and crystal one of the two which brings crystal count to 350. Now you evolve your final two pieces and then crystalize the final piece.

Thats a 8-1 pope sir, a correct one
Any advice on how to make it still OPE + ?
Just crystalise everything ?
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:45 am

So legend, just level up 8 mercs and crystalise all r1's ?
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:46 am

Yup put that piece aside and just use as the last R 2 you use.

Believe it or not man don't sweat it as were talking -30 - (-300pts)

Its really not a big deal or a huge difference. It will just ALWAYS remind you though lmao

Right hep? Ahaha
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:47 am

Go ahead fresh do it lime he says. Just go ahead and crystal all 8. Hell you haven't messed up as far as legend is concerned lol so just follow his plan.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:47 am

Like*
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:53 am

Not trying to cause rifts but I'm pretty sure it doesn't matter if you crystal just seeds then final evo or enhance them all as R1 either way will work.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:53 am

I've always leveled up all my R1 mercs to 70 and crystallized them all at the same time before evolving. I've never had any problems not getting the POPE stats (WIKI evolved stats + 665). Whatever works for you I guess.

Blood Brothers has an identical evolution mechanism, and they have a great explanation of it (with pics!) on their wiki at http://bloodbrothersgame.wikia.com/wiki/Tutorial:Making_an_OPE

The thing that helped me the most when i first started was this picture:

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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 10:58 am

No rifts art.

Everytime i have done like legend stats there is always something that gets the red negative number. I've ran into people with similar issues so it seemed doing it the way i found was easier with less confusion. Less confusing to myself anyway lol
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 11:00 am

Yeah that pic legend, the one i saw with how it was explained showed four R1's crystal'd, two R2's and then the final one crystal'd.

Thr other night i was going to do two lethals then i realized both were crystal'd so i thought it was screwed but even though it showed the negative points i still had top stats.

That just added to the confusion lol
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 11:02 am

Getting a negative number after evolution? Has nothing to do with crystals and everything to do with the growth curve of the merc. This usually happens when going from R2 -> E3 and has no effect on the final stats. It's just an odd occurrence that happens when evolving the merc actually sends it lower on a hyperbolic growth curve than it previously was (70/70 is top of the curve, 70/99 after evo is lower on the curve).
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 11:03 am

The only way i seem to have no problems is the way i explained, which does work you just have to constantly look to make sure you are using whichever crystal you needed to use.

I guess both ways will work as long as the directions are followed 100% which still brings me back to losing points the other way for whatever reason
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 11:05 am

Legend i lost those points and have it affect a couple mercs final stats just like the knuckledriver i have. Thats the main reason i looked elsewhere for any other explanations of the process
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 11:07 am

I'm ziggin where i should be zagging is the only thing i can cone up with lol but i've had people ask me that have run into the same thing. So i explain it the way i found. Obviously mine is more confusing from lookin at it but easier for me to follow
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 4:57 pm

I believe blandquick, Legend, Art are correct and also Fresh's merc is fine (POPE).

As far as I understand:

- Every Merc has base stats gained when leveling. These stats are separate from crystal bonus stats. Sometimes these stats drop when changing rarity tiers.

- Target crystals carry over. Since the additional bonus is +500 regardless before or after, crystallizing the target only before evolution is the same as crystallizing the combined merc after evolution.

- When evolving two mercs together, the "bonus" crystal stats only come from the source. The new added value is a percentage of the original crystal value.

Now I know it's confusing looking ... let's work backwards on the 8n1 400 (number = rarity, first number in parens = target, second number in parens = source, *= crystal):

2n1 100 to Rare2:
(1*+1*)
= (1+1*)*

This is because target crystals are the same as crystals after evolving. If you look at the crystal guide, it doesn't bother to show equations for crystals on the targets, as it's the same as crystallizing the evolved form it in the next step; they are equivalent. (1*+1)* is actually impossible.

4n1 200 to Epic3:
(1*+1*) + (1*+1*)
= (1+1*)* + (1+1*)*  //this is just the 2n1 100 twice
= ((1+1*)+(1+1*)*)*

If the last step lost you, it's just because you can do the crystallizing on the main seed target at any point in the tiers. In all of these evolutions, only one is the seed target and the rest are actually sources.

8n1 400 to Epic4:
((1*+1*) + (1*+1*)) + ((1*+1*) + (1*+1*))
= ((1+1*)* + (1+1*)*) + ((1+1*)* + (1+1*)*) //the 2n1 example
= ((1+1*)+(1+1*)*)* + ((1+1*)+(1+1*)*)* //the 4n1 example
= (((1+1*)+(1+1*)*) + ((1+1*)+(1+1*)*)*)*

Each step, I just moved the crystal from the main target seed further out, so the main target seed crystallization happens at a later tier. It doesn't matter as an absolute 500 stats would be carried over at each step... any step adding to the target main seed is the same.

scratch No idea if this cleared things up or confused people more... but conclusion? It's the same enhancing before or after. Enhancing all your r1's and then leveling/combining the normal way is probably the least confusing method. If you look at the google doc, line 51-59, there are 8 equivalent ways to get do an 8n1 200 for 99.5294% (not optimal btw) Cheers study


Last edited by mrpug on September 6th 2013, 5:44 pm; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 5:19 pm

So what might be confusing is why is 8n1 200 an efficient way to enhance when it seems like crystals are only being added to the sources? Let's take a closer look:

(((1 + 1*) + (1 + 1)*) + ((1 + 1) + (1 + 1))*)*
= ((1 + 1*) + (1 + 1)*)* + ((1 + 1) + (1 + 1))* // I moved the outside crystal to the inside of its target; it's the same.
= (1 + 1*)* + (1 + 1)* + ((1 + 1) + (1 + 1))* // again
= (1* + 1*) + (1 + 1)* + ((1 + 1) + (1 + 1))* // one last shift coming up!
= (1* + 1*) + (1* + 1) + ((1* + 1) + (1 + 1))

Now some renaming.

= (Seed Target* + direct source*) + (R2 with target +500) + (R3 with target +500)

This should be clearer as to why it's good... crystals have gone under the least dilution and are actually on the PREVIOUS TIER TARGETS, BEFORE BECOMING SOURCES.

The reality is, if you don't have many crystals, you could just do a 50, 100, or even 150 and it would be a more efficient use of crystals. The more crystals you use, the less you get back actually.


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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 5:26 pm

Mepug yup they are right that it works that way but for some reason i have lost points. Thats why I do it my way.

I wish i could figure it out because its real easy i mean crystal the 8 and just evolve from there till you have to level the last two but for whatever reason something screwy happens.

I didn't mean to come off and say it doesn't work period, it just doesn't for me so if it seems someone else is having the same problem as me i just tell them that way.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 5:42 pm

@ ace I know i posted a new thread but I thought I would do POPE fresh was asking about OPE and thought it might get confusing on the thread.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 8:16 pm

lginn2003 wrote:
@ ace I know i posted a new thread but I thought  I would do POPE fresh was asking about OPE and thought it might get confusing on the thread.
I was asking for POPE actually. scratch 
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 6th 2013, 8:57 pm

Wow you guys really complicate things.

50 crystals to the final merc, you get 100% value.

50 crystals to any of 3 mercs that are evolved directly with the final merc, you get 10% of those crystals back. That is why 200 is popular.

Pope is adding crystals to all 8, AT ANY TIME. For indirect mercs being evolved, you will get back 10% of 10% of their stats. In many cases, you can add crystals to a 7 in 1 build and get stats equal to an 8 in 1. When a merc is as valuable as at Lilith, it is silly IMO to use 8 because crystals are cheaper than the 8th merc
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 7th 2013, 3:02 am

Don't make it simple....make it more complex......that's what they seem to want.....
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 7th 2013, 3:11 am

lol
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 7th 2013, 3:19 pm

When you receive 10% off of a source, it's best to have that source also give the 500 point bump from the 50 crystals when you drop it into the fusion.

DO NOT add crystals to both mercs if you are going to evolve again (from v1 -> v2 or v2 -> v3). This where Fresh's shellstinger got into trouble.  If the shellstinger will only ever be a v2 merc when fully matured, then he's fine; if it ever reveals itself to be a v4 merc, then he's stuck.  Only time will tell.

So, for the 8/200:

Only put crystals on 4 of your 8 v1 mercs.  These become the source mercs to provide their stats into your other 4 v1 mercs.  Here you end with 4 v2 mercs, each capable of taking crystals.  

Add crystals to 2 of the 4 v2 mercs. These become the source mercs to provide their stats into your other 2 v2 mercs.  Here you end with 2 v3 mercs, each capable of taking crystals.  

Add crystals to 1 of the 2 v3 mercs. This one becomes the source merc to provide its stats into your other v3 mercs.  Here you end with v4 merc, capable of taking crystals.

Eazy peazy (caveat: I mangled a few too.)
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 7th 2013, 3:28 pm

for ope200 why not just level and evolve your 8 mercs so you end up with 2 r1s, a r2, and an e3 merc then crystalize all 4 and finish the evolution? simple and no risk of losing your crystals by mistakenly evolving the wrong merc
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 7th 2013, 3:41 pm

Hep, you are wrong on almost all you posted. Go back and reread what I posted
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 7th 2013, 8:31 pm

@paintballer: That's pretty much what I do for ope 200.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 8th 2013, 10:25 am

Ed, isn't 10% of a larger number better? That's what I was saying.

These calculations are similar to compound interest and the Rule of 72 in Finance 101. The more times it's in the wash, rinse, repeat cycle the more incremental increases you receive.

100 * 1.1 (ten percent) = 110
100 * (1.1) * 1.1 (2 cycles of ten percent) = 121
100 * (1.1) * 1.1 * 1.1 (3 cycles of ten percent) = 133
100 * (1.1) * 1.1 * 1.1 * 1.1 (4 cycles of ten percent) = 146

If you only have 50 crystals to a merc, waiting until the end prevents the benefits of the earlier compounding. Each 1.1 in the example above could be enhanced by a 50 crystal injection. I'll let you crunch the actual calculation for your specific mercs.

Well actually, the 4th cycle was for illustrating the point as we only have 3 cycles in FF.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 8th 2013, 11:38 am

That is the kind of math that makes people think it's a good idea to pay interest for tax purposes.

It works like this:

500 * .1 = 50 (direct evolution the r1, r2, and e3 in paints example)
500 * .1 * .1 = 5 (indirect, such as the r1 that makes the r2 above)
500 * .1 *. 1 = .5 ( the 8th r1, which is why I said 8n1 is wasteful for expensive mercs)
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 8th 2013, 3:59 pm

Sure thing Ed.

So, if anyone was planning to put more than 50 crystals into any of their mercs, don't waste the time and effort. affraid

Just gift them to me.  Laughing 
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 8th 2013, 6:49 pm

heptathlete wrote:
Sure thing Ed.

So, if anyone was planning to put more than 50 crystals into any of their mercs, don't waste the time and effort.  affraid

Just gift them to me.  Laughing 
I had a reply, but my tablet power saved and the screen refreshed. I think this explains everything hep.

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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 8th 2013, 6:59 pm

lol ^^

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edluv1
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 8th 2013, 7:03 pm

Yes, I suppose I could have looked for the smiley beating the dead horse.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 9th 2013, 7:57 am

@ace I agree with you I also ran into a red negative number but the stats came out right. I just did it and tested it. Ace is right about the red negative number.
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PostSubject: Re: POPE ?   September 9th 2013, 8:52 am

the only time you get negative numbers is when you evolve a merc from it's R2 state, to the E3 state and it's growth rate (which surprisingly isn't displayed on the character screen anymore) changes.

For example, when I evolved my Primarch v2s into a Giga-Primarch v1, it's growth rate went from fast to slow after the evolution happened. You don't lose the stats per say, in the beginning yes, but they are made up later in the lvling process
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