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 Buff washing vs. double negative buffs

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heptathlete
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PostSubject: Buff washing vs. double negative buffs   September 14th 2013, 3:03 pm

During PVP, or really any of the combats, have you ever had a buff not just eliminated, but become a negative because your opponent buffs overwrite yours?

Here's an example. Using the Blue Wasp, he increases AGI & DEF. During the Tower I had opponents using the "Sabotage" to wipe away the buff & further decrease my team's ability to protect itself.

Shouldn't enemy attacks only take a merc back to unbuffed state, rather than doubling their skills? Any battle when your merc goes from a blue symbol (enhanced) to a red symbol (decreased) your merc has experienced the doubling penalty.

Dakota, please fix this issue as it impacts virtually every battle scenario.
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blandquick
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PostSubject: Re: Buff washing vs. double negative buffs   September 14th 2013, 7:45 pm

I'm not exactly sure what you mean, but if you mean what I think, then it is not a bug but working as intended.

Example. Your blue wasp buffs your team for 5 agi. My fug bug debuffs you for 4 agi. Your agi buff icon stays blue. Your net agi buff is +1.

Next example. Same as above, but my fug bug gets tigrey buffed and debuffs you for 8 agi. Your agi buff icon is now red, because +5 minus -8 is net -3. I am guessing if the game were to see a perfect buff and debuff scenario where the net was 0, the icon might just disappear.

I have tested this a gazillion times during tower, as I use debuff teams.
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heptathlete
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PostSubject: Re: Buff washing vs. double negative buffs   September 15th 2013, 3:08 am

Actually, if you look closely at your buffing and debuffing you will see that when something debuffs your buffed team it doesn't go from positive to neutral, then neutral to negative. The negative debuffing strips away the advantage AND steps in with a negative buff in the same action.

Otherwise, why would a buffed team (blue icons below the mercs) immediately switch to a weakened team (red icons below the mercs) in one skill proc from one merc that was not enhanced by any other merc? Are you saying it's the magnitude of the buff and debuff? I'll need a more concrete example than the one blandquick provided.
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mamoncrief
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PostSubject: Re: Buff washing vs. double negative buffs   September 15th 2013, 3:31 am

OK here is the concrete example. When fighting tower, I use a helio to weaken at and defense of the opponents on the first half of stage 10, who counter this with their own buff of atk and def. My helio decreases each ~10k, but their buff is stronger, so the icon goes from red (from the helio) to blue (from their superior buff). In the second half of level 10, my golem uses an atk buff on my squad for ~12k atk. The enemies use an atk debuff, but even when being hit by this debuff, if my merc has already been buffed by golem the icon stays blue. In fact, it can get hit by 2 debuffs and still stay blue because the buff is so powerful.

Buffing and debuffing is very simple addition and subtraction, and tower can prove it with thousands of cases for evidence like this. I could find out, given enough time and boredom, the exact # of wisdom on all of the mercs in lvl 10 if I wanted to, based simply off the damage/reduction provided by their buffs and debuffa.
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danthepirate
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PostSubject: Re: Buff washing vs. double negative buffs   September 15th 2013, 3:39 am

Debuffs are harder to figure out as there appears to be a dubuff resistance which is most likely calculated on the Wis of the target.

So theoretically if you had a blue bot and the opposing team had a yellow bot with the same stats, the debuff would not completely remove the buff of your blue bot
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mamoncrief
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PostSubject: Re: Buff washing vs. double negative buffs   September 15th 2013, 3:50 am

True that ^

However, has anyone else noticed that it seems like this is less and less of an issue? I remember when yellow bot and blue bot came out the blue buff was like whoa, but the yellow bot debuff, despite having the exact same stats and modifier, was pretty paltry.

This afternoon however, I ran into a team with a deadland rider, which is not a feared merc for me by far. However in this case, his debuff procc'd and (assuming he was OPE) would still only debuff me ~10k base. Normally, because of that debuff resistance, demoralizer is barely enough for me to notice, but today it took my hanzo down to about 2k damage per hit, and I ended up losing the fight. I was so blown away I remember the team, it was tyypo, sunbeam harvester, mcmasters, graff, and rider. Versus my team of Birdkeeper-tideslayer-hanzo-odin-blue.
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blandquick
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PostSubject: Re: Buff washing vs. double negative buffs   September 15th 2013, 6:24 am

Lol
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Ravendill
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PostSubject: Re: Buff washing vs. double negative buffs   September 16th 2013, 9:22 am

mamon, it was probably just the pre-pvp event pvp jimmy rigging that they do to prevent people from farming too many mags...I doubt that squad would kill a fly, let alone your squad in normal PVP proc rates.
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