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 Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H

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mrpug
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PostSubject: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 2:59 pm

+ Didn't get hit by nerf bat, 75% modifier reduction to opponent AGI and DEF
- effect of buffs have always been better, not near as good as blue-bot pre-patch, PvP benefit only

The questions:
1. Is it now the best AGI advantage merc in the game (taking the throne of... *cough* blue wasp)?
2. If answer to 1 is "yes", how good can it be in an ATK squad?

If it makes ATK guys go first adds -DEF to opponents... seems like potentially great synergy.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 5:05 pm

I thought they tuned the whole CXB family,at least it says on the notice.
Buffers stacks up on your original stats like simple math but when it comes to debuff they must have another formula and it always puzzles me as I tried the gold bot for a while testing all my wild theories anf got utterly disappointed.....then I gave it to frank..
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 5:24 pm

If anyone has a gold bot for trade I'd be interested in it. I've been thinking of experimenting with the debuff
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 5:24 pm

The whole CXB family got nerfed- gold bot didn't escape the nerfbat
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 6:00 pm

Are you sure mamon, just checked and it looks the same as before. 75% modifier that is.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 6:38 pm

It still says it on the json, that is correct, I was basing that comment on the fact in the update it said the ENTIRE cxb family was altered. It is entirely possible that goldbot still has that modifier, it just seems strange that they would leave it after phrasing it that way.

Either way, with the debuff resistance that is built in, I would still rather run blue bot with 25% bonus to agility over a gold bot with a 75% wis reduction to their agility.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 7:34 pm

A gold bot would still trump the blue bots buff...it would stay in the red.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 7:35 pm

And if there's no blue bot on enemy team then your further hurting agi teams on top of the nerf.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 7:38 pm

I'm not convinced that a decent blue bot wouldn't strip the debuff of a similarly evolved goldbot. There is a sever penalty to debuffs as far as how resistance is applied. I have never liked debuffs, they are next to useless in this game.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 7:49 pm

What resistance? I thought that was wis based and only for wis based attacks... if the agi debuff is -8000 agi and the buff is +4000 the gold bots debuff won't be stripped its still a -4000 agi def hit. Even before the nerf I had 11084 gold bots debuff stick over my 10934 blue bot.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 7:52 pm

that what I was expecting out of the debuff, but when I was playing with gold bot it didn't stop an unbuffed black bot from killing things
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 7:53 pm

But it doesn't work that way.

There IS a debuff resistance, what it is based on and how it works is anyones guess, but its a fraction of a fraction of the actual % wis that is being reduced that actually gets lowered.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 7:56 pm

A hellcat buffed helio should reduce an opponents atk and def by a whopping 22k

but a single golem buff which is a max of 13k will counteract the debuff.

This is a scenario I have tried and proven in pvp, even very recently. So while a gold bot seems awesome, the actual effective agil/def debuff is pretty insignificant.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 8:10 pm

I would need to see this to believe it. If there's a 22k debuff then a 13 k buff would simply be 9k debuff. I've fought teams with 2 jwm2 that had a stronger debuff then my golems buff. Hellcat buffed helio v2 debuff should stick over golem buff. The icon may change simply because its atk/def vs just atk.... but the actual stats aren't really going into the positive just because it turns blue.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 19th 2013, 8:39 pm

Thats were a Nox comes to save a day.
Nox + Helio best combo for PvP. Smile
I think. Lol
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 20th 2013, 2:15 am

Yeah, what mamon is saying was the general consensus before. If though gold bot's debuff is better than blue wasp buff now post patch, it would seem to me that gold bot would be pretty useful as the king of agi advantage and have great synergy with atk damage first teams.

Anyone who has a chance to test it, please report back!
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 20th 2013, 4:57 am

I haven't calculated myself but I always thought Buff > Debuff because debuff has a resistance against it.

Buff increases the stat by adding a % of the caster's WIS.

Debuff reduces the stat by % of caster's WIS - (target's WIS x unknown multiplier)
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 20th 2013, 9:39 am

thalstin is right ... but the wis is the resistance. and the resistance is a marginal number that makes it barely weaker then a buff. gold bot was way under shadowed by blue bot because there was no resistance with the buff and there is with the debuff but now that bluebot only buffs 25% and gold bot is still 75% the gold bot will put way more of a debuff up then the blue bot will buff even with wis resistance. sure when your hitting people with 15k wis your not going to debuff them by much but it should still be 5-6k sticking from a 9k debuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 20th 2013, 9:55 am

The main selling point for me would be it if actually decreased AGI enough that 11k-12k AGI mercs on your team would get to go before the other teams 14k-15k mercs. Prove that to me and I would probably find a spot for it on my team.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 20th 2013, 10:00 am

ive got 2 10540 gold bots i plan to sell once people start realizing that they will have the agi advantage using him over blue wasp. only invested 5 res total for both so i know im going to get a good profit there.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 20th 2013, 4:48 pm

Blue bot will still give you first strike 90% of the time. So if we are talking about gold bots value being in giving first strike capabilities then I still value blue bot over gold because it has the same effect plus a def buff. They are small, but still beef up and give first attack.


Last edited by mamoncrief on October 20th 2013, 5:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 20th 2013, 4:50 pm

legendslayer wrote:
The main selling point for me would be it if actually decreased AGI enough that 11k-12k AGI mercs on your team would get to go before the other teams 14k-15k mercs. Prove that to me and I would probably find a spot for it on my team.
Exactly my thought.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 3:32 pm

So I've been running an experimental squad for fun while we wait for next event:

Gold - Tigrey - Leader (Jade) - Tigrey - WastelandRider
("A" formation)

Results have been surprising... I usually choose the lowest damage teams, usually AGI based ones if possible. Obviously, it's very proc-dependent but it has a good win%. If the leader is double buffed and then adds its heal... it's extremely hard to kill off one of my guys.

As for gold bot:
- I went against wasp, bluebot, (lilith, archangel, something else) and wasp, blue, tigrey, gold all proc'ed. All my guys went first.
- I went against another AGI squad (lockdown, arch, some other stuff) with no buffers. Only my gold bot proc'ed and all my guys went first except one tigrey... hum.

So my current conclusions are 1. gold bot for sure does not debuff the full 75% of WIS... definitely a fraction of it 2. it's making my guys go first, but not all the time; probably close to wasp/bluebot level. I actually find this to be a pretty good result and will continue to due some testing.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 4:02 pm

That's about what I thought.

Goldbot debuff with 75% mod gives ~ the same benefit as a blue bot buff with a 25% mod. It will make your guys go first about 90% of the time. If it is worth it for you and your team to guarantee that first shift then it would be worth it to run one. But as far as gold bot being the new standard, i think it's pretty much a wash.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 4:17 pm

mamoncrief wrote:
That's about what I thought.

Goldbot debuff with 75% mod gives ~ the same benefit as a blue bot buff with a 25% mod. It will make your guys go first about 90% of the time. If it is worth it for you and your team to guarantee that first shift then it would be worth it to run one. But as far as gold bot being the new standard, i think it's pretty much a wash.
Yeah and I hope more testing will pinpoint when a merc wont go before the opposing team. If it's based on opposing WIS, then selecting opponents with low WIS would be key. If it's a fixed debuff, then gold might have less value.

The line where you said 90% made me open my eyes. As high dmg ATK teams are the new standard, in a match of two strong teams, who strikes first is still key. if you can really get your guys to go first 90% of the time, gold bot would be the winning centerpiece.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 4:33 pm

if the debuff is roughly the same or slightly better than blue/wasp, then wouldn't it still be better to run blue/wasp over this? With blue/wasp your team would get AGI/DEF buff and most likely go first. With gold your team would most likely go first, but would debuff AGI/DEF of other team.

It's basically the difference between if you want DEF or if you want opponent to get -DEF, but in the end, that doesn't matter because whoever goes first wins. So, IMO, blue/wasp is still better.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 5:05 pm

Ravendill wrote:
if the debuff is roughly the same or slightly better than blue/wasp, then wouldn't it still be better to run blue/wasp over this? With blue/wasp your team would get AGI/DEF buff and most likely go first. With gold your team would most likely go first, but would debuff AGI/DEF of other team.

It's basically the difference between if you want DEF or if you want opponent to get -DEF, but in the end, that doesn't matter because whoever goes first wins. So, IMO, blue/wasp is still better.
- Don't know which is exactly better yet, but it is close. Part of this is because it seems wasp buff is fixed, whereas Gold seems to be variable. The variability is interesting imo, because of selecting from 3 opponents.

- If wasp buff/gold debuff are exactly the same, gold will probably prove to have higher value. This is because goldbot + ATK squad makes a lot more sense than blue + ATK squad, and ATK teams seem to be the standard.

Interestingly, the one team a gold bot wouldn't have an advantage over is AGI + blue squad. In fact, there's a nice rock-paper-scissors going on there. ATK + gold > ATK > AGI + Wasp > ATK + gold
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 5:13 pm

I see your point with using an ATK squad + gold vs. ATK squad + blue...lower their DEF and your ATK hits more, but it's still fairly even between the two.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 5:46 pm

In my opinion blue bot is still king. Its a measly 2.5k buff (averaging stats out to 10k for easy math, it will be a little higher/lower depending on evo)

This is a buff so this is actually the number you are looking at adding. So if you have a merc with 13k agility or higher you will strike first again any unbuffed opponent in the game (these are mercs like fista and tideslayer).

However checking the agility teir list for mercs that you are much more likely to run into in pvp like cannonback and nalac, even a merc with 10.5 agility would have a shot at striking before an unbuffed nalac.

And as I can't say enough, the resistance to the def debuff will mean that you are reducing their defense for a fraction of what the listed stat is. So if the agility pretty much ends up being a wash, we can infer that you are lowing def by ~3k as well. Not enough to be noticed, as opposed to ~3k def added to yourself in a buff.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 7:43 pm

I've decided a pure Niobe + Kenna squad is too slow. I keep getting destroyed around battle 15+ when the proc manipulation kicks in against full L squads. So I'm going to test out a Gold Bot in the mix as well, it just might give me enough of an edge to get buffed. On top of that, my squad will probably be the most reviled squad ever to fight against when proc manipulation actually works FOR it, haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 7:48 pm

RougeXIII is running a Brody-Niobe-Niobe-Niobe-Niobe squad that was pretty funny.

I beat is pretty handily however. Though I killed half the Niobes in the first round and the other two buffed in the second, the def buf wasn't enough to keep them alive to get an attack off. That could be a major weakness of this sort of mono squad. Maybe Niobe is better to be used as a corner piece to throw a lifesaving buff rather than as the lynchpin of a squad that depends on her procs.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 21st 2013, 8:50 pm

mamoncrief wrote:
RougeXIII is running a Brody-Niobe-Niobe-Niobe-Niobe squad that was pretty funny.

I beat is pretty handily however. Though I killed half the Niobes in the first round and the other two buffed in the second, the def buf wasn't enough to keep them alive to get an attack off. That could be a major weakness of this sort of mono squad. Maybe Niobe is better to be used as a corner piece to throw a lifesaving buff rather than as the lynchpin of a squad that depends on her procs.
I ran into that team; my guess is rogue was testing something. I was thinking if it had wasp or goldbot, it would be a lot scarier.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 22nd 2013, 9:16 am

I said from the beginning, Niobe would be a great back row merc, but that's about it Very Happy

I do think gold bot will help the cause for your squad Legend Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 22nd 2013, 5:28 pm

Results of some more testing:

- a Pope Gold Bot debuff will NOT cancel out a blue bot buff. So whatever debuff resistance is going on, even a 75% debuff is less powerful than a 25% buff.

- Also, a 75% ATK debuff from F-9 will not cancel out a Golem buff

- Also, a 14k Niobe buff will NOT stop that golem-buffed Cannonback Battlemaster in the back row from doing 30k damage to you...
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 22nd 2013, 5:39 pm

All good tests. This is the reason why I stay away from debuffs
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 22nd 2013, 6:03 pm

I think Niobe's best feature is ATK buff. The DEF buff will help you sleep at night, but when the bad men come and you are by yourself, it's ATK that will win you the day...not your shield.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 22nd 2013, 6:23 pm

The only debuff that works for me is demoralizer. Wasteland rider wis buffed will make even golem buffed cannon hit less than 1k, but not knowing what evo the golem and cannon were.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 22nd 2013, 8:44 pm

duavae wrote:
The only debuff that works for me is demoralizer. Wasteland rider wis buffed will make even golem buffed cannon hit less than 1k, but not knowing what evo the golem and cannon were.
Same here. I had very surprising results with the tigrey/war marshal combo. Both proc'd about 75% of the time and was causing ATK teams with Nalac/Incin/Golem severe problems.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 22nd 2013, 9:39 pm

or tigrey and mordeo proccin can do the same had golem proc on me did like 900 damage so tigrey is awesome when u chain proc it. Defense with counter with these proc rates is the best offense for mid tier Herpie veterans like me
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 23rd 2013, 12:17 am

I am spoiled, I still have my hellcat left over (pretty much all I had after the nerf haha)

So I have been playing around with chain buffs like that as well. Hellcat-Demoralizer is one of my favorites, but if I run into a golem they can still pull it up into positives. And It doesn't do a dang thing against an agility team. Those still wreck me.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 23rd 2013, 12:48 am

time to put in aunty grace next to the Cat M
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 23rd 2013, 1:31 am

Haha probably not a bad idea seeing as it appears like proc manipulation is alive and well. Fight 24, running:

Double gun-helio-hellcat-golem-incin

Against

Cannonback-eve-brodey-lockdown-particle propeller

0 buffs, 0 attack procs , cannonback, brodey, and lockdown all proc in the enemies first turn and its a loss. It then takes me 4 mags to win the rival battle. 4. A top tier pvp team vs that mediocre setup and it wasted 5 mags just by itself.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 23rd 2013, 2:15 am

That's harsh dude, you totally should have won that.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 23rd 2013, 3:22 am

I have noticed tho, if you include the leader in the squad, proc is slightly better, needs further testing but I swear it procs more often
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 23rd 2013, 8:06 am

Agreed with duavae I have also noticed that with the leader in front everyone else works better. I just never liked the leaders.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 23rd 2013, 8:46 am

Well, if you put that 3 random attack girl leader next to a Mordeo, 3 insta kills + Leader's Vitality. Still not that bad. I'm using Cmdr. Brodey for raid, 700k damage each proc unbuffed on all-out.
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PostSubject: Re: Revisiting Goldbot CXB-2000H   October 27th 2013, 12:09 pm

Leader does the vitality thing which throws a monkey wrench into lots of battles.
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