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 Taps for Tigrey

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mamoncrief
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PostSubject: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 1:42 pm

Hey, I have had a huge number of people ask about whether or not to run a Tigrey this raid or not, and I so to prevent me from having to keep saying it over again, I want everyone to know that I think Tigrey's time in the spotlight for raid is done. Let me explain.

Let's look at two potential lines containing nothing but prawns and gigaprimarchs with and without a tigrey. Let's assume 14k wis on the primarchs and 13k atk on the prawns, roughly OPE amounts. P is Prawn, G is Giga, T is Tigrey.

The first line is with a Tigrey: P-G-T-G-P
The second is without: P-G-P-G-P

Math time!

For the Tigrey squad 13k-14k-11k-14k-13k are the numbers we need to look at. Ideal situation is all buffs, which gives us this:

P(38k atk)-G(34k atk)-T(32k atk)-G(34k atk)-P(38k atk) With this line with no atk pocs you get 176k atk worth of auto attacks. 100k of that is guaranteed to be auto attack damage from your buffers. This means 56% of your damage will NEVER go up, and is locked in at that level. The max damage with both Prawns proc'ing is 556k atk worth of damage. So with Tigrey our range is 176-556.

For the Non-Tigrey squad 13k-14k-13k-14k-13k are the numbers we need to look at. Again Ideal situation with all buffs gives us:

P(27k atk)-G(22k atk)-P(41k atk)-G(22K atk)-P(27k atk) With no atk procs we recieve 139k atk worth of auto attacks, BUT only 44k of that guaranteed to be auto attack damage from the buffers. This means only 30% of your damage is locked in. The max damage with all three prawns proc'ing is 570k atk worth of damage. So without Tigrey our range is 139-570.

Look at the numbers. Tigrey affords NO maximum damage benefit, even in the MOST IDEAL situation. Not to mention it requires 3 buffs to proc, instead of just 2, and if 1 buff fails the potential damage falls DRASTICALLY. The minimum damage benefit is negligible, and you have to hearken back to how much of the damage is guaranteed white damage from auto attacks- 56% and 30%. This means that you are going to have a statistically significant higher chance of dealing non-white damage by freeing up the Tigrey spot and adding another offensive proc.

Tigrey worked great with agil setups where you could double the wis of 2 blues and transfer that bonus to an entire squad. Tigrey DOES NOT work with low modifier buffers or "Buff Adjacent" type allies.

I hope this puts the issue to rest, and we can all mourn Tigrey and his moment in the spotlight, because in the current game he is back to having no role.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 2:42 pm

I don't care if no one responds, every time I see someone asking for help with their raid formation include tigrey on the list im gonna bump this.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 2:51 pm

Even though I didn't ask for it, I thank you in name of all those who were too lazy to do the math themselves. ^.^
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 2:54 pm

Thanks for the analysis Mamon.

My question is, would this still hold true if you are buffing Wisdom mercs directly? If I buff 2 Burnfrosts with a Tigrey then I'm using it more like a Primarch than a chain buff. Or does Tig still not warrant a spot?
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 2:57 pm

yeah 1 tigrey + 2 BF > 3 BF
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 3:08 pm

3 BF > 1 Tigrey + 2 BF, if Tigrey doesn't buff. ( Obviously )
With all the proc manipulation it's something you have to think of.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 3:10 pm

Proc Manipulation: the great equalizer

3 BF = 1 Tigrey + 2 BF = all garbage with no procs
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 3:19 pm

^ True dat, haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 3:45 pm

Beat me to it legend. Also, remember that BF has over 16k wis, tigrey only adds 11, so really it's like 2.5 BF, so even less of a benefit. And you lose the chance for an extra proc. Tigrey is done, unless they release another decent all buffer with a good modifier %....

Which they wont. They didn't go through the effort of nerfing every all buffer with a decent skill into the ground just to make more.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 3:48 pm

Lovely....I'm so glad I just finished putting 80 Wis crystals into my build yesterday.

Well at least this post might save some other dumb schmuck from doing the same.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 3:51 pm

I've been sayings this for weeks, no one has been listening. I finally got tired of answering PM's about it over and over haha so I made the thread. Sorry orion!
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 3:54 pm

Not your fault. I just can't keep up with all the theory crafting. TBH I used a 10,9xx Blue Bot during PVP instead of a Blue Wasp and I still don't know which would have made more sense. I just got tired of trying to wrap my head around the 2 sides of the argument lol
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 4:04 pm

Imo its a wash. If your team needs to hit first to win, you have to use one, and it doesn't matter which one you use because it's gonna be a proc or die crapshoot anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 4:14 pm

I m just abt to finish my third xiaotigrey. Now I feel I shud hav tried for an all attack team.
Anyway too late now. I ll stick to my wis team for this raid and ll pray to the ff gods that my team procs(futile effort... I know).
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 4:50 pm

mamoncrief wrote:
Beat me to it legend. Also, remember that BF has over 16k wis, tigrey only adds 11, so really it's like 2.5 BF, so even less of a benefit. And you lose the chance for an extra proc. Tigrey is done, unless they release another decent all buffer with a good modifier %....

Which they wont. They didn't go through the effort of nerfing every all buffer with a decent skill into the ground just to make more.
That is not true, a tigrey buffing 2 BF add 11k3*2*0.7=16000 so it's really like an extra BF for cheap.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 5:49 pm

So are buffers like primarch worth it at all or is it Golem or nothing as far as attack buffers go?
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 5:52 pm

A good primarch will still buff more than a Golem (14k vs 13k). Niobe is on par with Primarch, and adds a def buff, at the expense of a 20% proc rate reduction. All three are viable atk buffers, but since all three are adjacent only, and one of the spots if chain buffed would be wasted on the tigrey, in all three cases tigrey is still not useful.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 7:06 pm

I decided to do the maths on a front line of 5 BF VS 3BF 2 Tigrey. This takes into consideration the advertised probabilities of attack procs as well as buff procs.
 
If we assume a POPE WIS Tigreys and OPE 8/200c Burnfrosts, this is what I got for the avg damage for the row per turn:
 
5 BF: 261302
3 BF, 2 Tig: 256171
 
However, from what I have been seeing, it is more likely that the avg wis of the burnfrosts will be something closer to say 15800. So redoing the maths:
 
5 BF: 246506
3 BF, 2 Tig: 246991
 
So, in reality if you are going for a Burnfrost squad, Tigrey is actually quite useful being cheaper and may provide no loss of damage depending on what the quality of your burnfrosts is like. But, let's compare that to the average damage of a line of 3 OPE 8/50c Prawns and 2 POPE Wis Primarchs:
 
5 Prawns: 174913
3 Prawns, 2 Prim: 204037
 
So clear winner to the wisdom crew. We are ignoring poison here as we are just looking at a front line setup and it probably wouldn't be a bad idea to run Prawn - Prim - Prawn - Prim - Brody as the back line.
 
In summary, my opinion is Tigrey next to Primarch is bad (I'm not even going to do up the full calcs for that), but Tigrey between Burnfrost is not. Also, I will be running a Tigrey between a Burnfrost and a Niobe. Not because this is optimal, but, I am just using what I have as best as I can.
 
If you want to know what my formulas are and/or debate my maths feel free...
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 7:45 pm

You are also assuming a 100% buff rate. The biggest handicap for a Tigrey in the current system is that without chaining him to an all but you are losing 10% of your merc space to make 2 mercs hit 75% more, 70% of the time.

I don't do stats, I barely do math, but 75% more damage 70% of the time and every other time being totally worthless just doesn't seem to make him worthwhile.

Especially as a pure wis buffer, because you are relying on those 30% procs on BF to make it worth while. I just don't see any situation where you would get more damage by putting a Tig in than even putting an UM in his spot and running the whole team without a buffer. He just isn't worth it.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 7:50 pm

Tigrey and primarch are on the same level its just the lack of multi hitting wisdom farms that make him seem undervalued. I promise you bf-tig-bf-tig-bf rows will do the damage that the big rig teams were doing if not more.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 7:51 pm

No I am not, I am attempting to properly factor it in. Whether I am doing it properly is completely up for debate.
 
I did it up in excel and this is the formula I used to determine the average damage for a double buffed Burnfrost in the middle row as an example. I have just replaced the cell locations with a tag to say what it is:
 
 
(0.7*[BF ATT]) + (0.3*([BF WIS] + 0.42*[TIG WIS] + 0.49 * 2 *[TIG WIS])*9)
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 5th 2013, 8:10 pm

@arth- I'll test it. I have 5 OPE BF and 3 OPE tigreys, so we will see what kind of damage it puts out. When I am unimpressed I'll let everyone here know.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 6th 2013, 2:37 am

If yes, "NERFMAN" is on the way.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 6th 2013, 7:40 am

So I did up the calculations for my exact squad I ran last time (the standard Key, Rig, Tigrey, Blue Bot squad) and got an average all out, 1.2 infamy of 20 million when in reality it was probably around 11-12 million (under reduced proc rates after the second day). This does not include the defense of the Boss, so I did a comparison with the numbers I remember getting for one of my keys buffed in a certain way and a calculated value. Seems as though on that instance the numbers in reality were around .7 of the calculated value. So, .7 of 20million is 14 million, which would seem about right as an average value for my team if the proc rates were normal.

Then I calculated up a 5*Burnfrost, 3*Tigrey, 1*Incinerate, Brody squad and it came out with 16 million. Reduce the value due to defense and that comes down to 11 million. Apply proc rate manipulation and I would expect an average value of maybe 8-9 million.

When I get time I will calculate it up for the exact squad I will be using in the raid and see how it comes out and compares with reality.

Edit: Ended up calculating the squad I will most probably run and it came out to an average of 19 million (without taking into consideration defense and proc manipulation). If I actually used 14K wis Primarchs instead of my current pact Primarchs it would be at 20 million which would be the same as my old squad. I think this perfectly illustrates what the problem was. My AGI squad when I first made it was worth ~100AC. This current squad that I will be running would probably be worth 650 -700AC.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 6th 2013, 9:47 am

AMEN! Finally. I've been saying that Tigreys are for Sh!t forever. Thanks Mamo, etal for the proofs.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 6th 2013, 3:40 pm

Topic completely overturned. Tigrey will be valuable again. *cough* event epic *cough*
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 6th 2013, 4:52 pm

if they dropped an epic on us that increased wisdom to whole squad pre battle 14k wis 50%mod would be a good one
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 6th 2013, 5:19 pm

I have no clue what these devs will do. Their minds are totally screwed up. They just lost 50% of the entire player base because they made event savages too strong and then they release an event savage with the second highest wis mult. in game. I just don't get it. You don't even have to evolve the savages, you get 80K bonus damage just from a tigrey and the multiplier lol.

But I'm calling it now- they are all proc reliant, and we are going to see the worst proc manipulation to date this event! Just so people can quote me haha.
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PostSubject: Re: Taps for Tigrey   November 6th 2013, 6:03 pm

Alright- So I have set up the ultimate showdown for this raid. I have two teams, and will be running both to see which one nets superior damage.

First Team: Atk Comp.

Incin-14k Prim-Incin-Golem-Incin
leader-F9-Helio-Double Gun-Prophet

Vs Team Two: Wis Comp.

BF-Tigrey-BF-Hellcat-BF
Leader-Double Gun-Bf-Tigrey-BF

I anticipate that my Atk team will lead off with much superior damage, but the wis team will catch up and pass it significantly if I get lucky and draw a few savages. I won't be purchasing savages, so we will have to see how lucky I get.

And if neither of them perform like I want, then I am going to run

Incin-giga-incin-golem-incin
BF-BF-BF-BF-leader

Hahha.
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