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Everydaynyc
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PostSubject: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 10th 2013, 1:30 pm

santa TEAM FFF DECEMBER SRB  F#@& NICE...PLAY VERY NAUGHTY! santa 

As per usual, please PM me with your SRB ranking goal.   Happy Holidays!
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mamoncrief
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 10th 2013, 6:47 pm

Sub 100 probably.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 10th 2013, 8:59 pm

if they do a redo of santa like marcus ill be top 7
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 1:34 am

Under 100
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 1:35 am

PM sent
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 11:45 am

Everydaynyc I hv sent u a pm but its stuck in my outbox. I m cool with the team you want me to be in.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 2:31 pm

I'm thinking of running a mostly ATK based squad, Barring any more trades, this is what my planned raid setup is going to look like.

Front: Prawn - Commando - Bulletstinger - Commando - Prawn
Back: Daddy - Mordeo - Brody - Primarch - Daddy

Unused: Boom Boxer v2, F-9 (x3), Lucion (x2), Tigrey, Pulseweaver Cyborg (r2)

I don't really have the buffers for an AGI or WIS team yet, so I'm thinking this is my best bet. What do you guys think?
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 3:18 pm

I want to see a raid boss with a def boost. How cool would that be. Just a 100% wis def boost to self that takes all the atk squad damage and puts it to single digits haha. Then that boom boxer could get some use Smile

But I am planning at the moment on running-

Incin-Golem-HC-Golem-bulletstinger
Leader-Dbl Gun-HC-Primarch-Helio
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Arthainius
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 3:22 pm

i was thinking about buying some savages this time around.hope to get 4-5 e4 then use hc to hopefully manipulate some type of mechanic that will make me destroy
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 3:28 pm

Mamon, since you like to run daisy chain buffs... do you think i could get more DPS out of my team if I took out a Daddy or Prawn and placed my Tigrey between Mordeo and Primarch? A good Tigrey has WIS on par with your HC, and will have the net same effect on the rest of the team.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 3:30 pm

if tig procs its 2x the damage but if he doesnt your missing out on all the damage a 3rd prwn would have done. where is all the incincs at?
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 3:31 pm

I traded away my uber-nerfed Niobe + Incin team (which would have absolutely destroyed raids Telepath style before the nerf) for a decent PvP setup. I'm just farming this raid anyway, but I would like to do it as efficiently as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 3:35 pm

ya if L sucks ill typical farm it out. can make soooooo many mags if can mvp your bosses with single mag up to e3s
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 3:36 pm

I played around with teams a TON last raid.

Math says that the damage will be higher leaving tigrey out of the mix, but experience was telling me that I was getting more out of stacking attack procs on a few heavily buffed guys rather than spreading the buffs out to the whole group and taking more dps procs.

I think it boils down to proc manipulation. If you are only going to get 3 attack procs in a battle, you want those procs to hit harder. Since having more *potential* procs didn't translate into a statistically noticable increase in total number of procs in a battle (which it should, but that's where the manipulation comes into effect)

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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 3:47 pm

Ok thanks, mamon. I'll play around with it a little more this event and see what things stack up to look like. I'm also thinking I should put my prawns and shellstinger in front of my Mordeo and Primarch and not the Commandos as the ATK buff is higher.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 5:42 pm

I'd suggest that ^^^ higher modifiers next to the higher buffs. Which is why my leader is next to dbl gun, and the shellstinger is next to the primarch in my lineup. Gotta min/max your dps for raid if you aren't doing savages.

With my setup I'll be able to mvp up to rank 2 bosses with 1 mag and mvp all rank 3's with one full auto, which means with luck on my side farming one or two mags every 45 minutes for 5 days and roughly 200-300 in the first 2.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 5:57 pm

hey if you guys have room i wouldnt mind playing real casual like.

<100~150 no problem
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 6:12 pm

@mamoncrief: I definitely subscribe to your theory, but I also like to use maths to make sure my average damage is going to be decent. From what legend said of his team, he had really high occasional dmg but his avg dmg was not the best, which is why I would suggest if anyone is going to try that again, that the front row should be Incin-Prim-Incin-Prim-Incin with 4 Niobes on the back row.

In my raid team I will be buffing a Niobe and a doublegun with a Tigrey. The Niobe will be buffing a Prophet V1 which is also buffed by a Prim.

Are you trying to say that you would run Incin-Prim-Tig-Prim-Incin in a V over Incin-Prim-Incin-Prim-Incin in a W?


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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 6:36 pm

Yes. Last raid I had 5 incins, 2 golems, HC and a 12k wis Tigrey, 2 14k+ prims, double gun, and slew of other hittes (kinetic, helio, etc etc) and I played around with dozens upon dozens of team setups.

My damage was considerably lower running what mathematically should have been the best lineup:

Incin-golem-incin-golem-incin

Than it was running:

Incin-Golem-HC-Golem-Incin

By about 5 million points on average, nothing to sneeze at.

The issue with the mathematically superior line up was manipulation. It give you higher probably damage because you get more % chance to hit an attack proc because you remove a buffer to put an extra attacker in. The problem was, I was NOT getting statistically higher chances to proc attack skills. I was still getting battles where only 1 atk proc per round or less would go. When I lined up with the buffer, if I got 1 attack proc a around BUT it was my HC/Golem buffed incin, then it would do upwards of 5 million damage in one hit on full auto by itself vs the 2.5-3 of the single buffed incin. Because the manipulation wasn't giving me MORE of the lesser procs like it should, I was hitting much higher damage numbers using the mathematically less efficient model but making the utmost of the 2-5 attack procs I would get per fight.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 6:45 pm

Here's a question. If a savage has a buffer do the higher stats from the multiplier configure into the buffing also or just to the attack?
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 6:47 pm

Sometimes it is surprising what the maths comes up with.

I have an excel spread sheet setup for calculating the damage of teams now.

Can you list out both your full teams that you tried as I would be interested in calculating them both out.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 7:12 pm

I tried probably 20 different set ups mate haha but the two you should try mathing out are:

Incin-Golem-HC-Golem-Incin
Brodey-dbl-HC-14k Prim-Incin

and

Incin-Golem-Incin-Golem-Incin
Brodey-Dbl-Prim-Kinetic v2-Helio

Those were two good examples of the type of squads I was running with and without wis buffers.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 9:49 pm

Ok so I did some maths which pretty much supports your observations. Again, with the maths, when looking at total values, the values you see in practice are usually a few million below the calculated value for whatever reason. However, I have found that the calculated values are a good indication of which squad will turn out better.

Comparing the front line of both for a single mag attack and no infamy bonus it came up with the following average damage per turn:

Incin-Golem-HC-Golem-Incin : 548703

Incin-Golem-Incin-Golem-Incin: 445876

So whether that translates to using Primarchs instead of Golems and Tigreys instead of Hellcats I haven't calculated yet as I ran out of time. Also it would be interesting to see how Prawns go instead of Incins.

So the full calculations of Damage across an entire battle, full auto with infamy of 1.2:

Squad1: 28611653

Squad2: 20573847

The back row of squad 2 is a little messed up though as I would swap the Kinetic and Prim.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 10:44 pm

i dont intend to detract from your calculations,

but does it account for the 3 round no melee proc situation with 1/3 buffers?
how do you average the damage?
how are you able to estimate whether an incin or golem procs on a given turn and who procs how many times during a battle?
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 10:56 pm

No that's fine, I am happy for anyone to poke holes in my calculations. I am after a somewhat accurate way of "rating" a team against another team, not trying to prove I am the all knowledgeable one Smile

Basically you use probability to determine average buffs and damage per round then multiply it out for the full 5 rounds.

Some simple examples(and it gets complex when you have chain buffs):

So an average primarch buff would be:
.7*([primarch wis] + [avg wis buff]).

Then, if you were determining the damage of an Incin you would use:
.7*([incin atk] + [avg atk buff on incin]) + .3 * 12 * ([incin atk] + [avg atk buff on incin])

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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 11:25 pm

danthepirate wrote:
No that's fine, I am happy for anyone to poke holes in my calculations. I am after a somewhat accurate way of "rating" a team against another team, not trying to prove I am the all knowledgeable one Smile

Basically you use probability to determine average buffs and damage per round then multiply it out for the full 5 rounds.

Some simple examples(and it gets complex when you have chain buffs):

So an average primarch buff would be:
.7*([primarch wis] + [avg wis buff]).

Then, if you were determining the damage of an Incin you would use:
.7*([incin atk] + [avg atk buff on incin]) + .3 * 12 * ([incin atk] + [avg atk buff on incin])



and again please dont take it as me trying to shoot you down, im just simply curious how you guys were coming up with some of these numbers.

so correct me if im wrong but the presented number would be the the ideal situation, discounting major outlier results, assuming that everything occurs in the game as advertised right?
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 12th 2013, 11:38 pm

It doesn't take into consideration any damage reduction due to defence and does assume that things proc as advertised. I also have no idea how the slightly randomised damage that you do in reality is calculated either.

I started doing it last raid to basically try to evaluate a few teams I had in mind prior to raid. If I had enough real world data vs calculated data, I could then try to see if there was some sort of factor I could apply to the calculated data to give an more accurate real world value.

That's mainly why I want to calculate up as many teams as I can to make sure the way I am doing it gives a somewhat accurate result. So far, I have found it is a good indicator.

Edit: The really high values that are possible are probably one reason why the calculated average comes out high. My team last time mostly did around 11-13m. Once or twice it did 8m, but quite regularly I would see 18m with the occasional max of 25 or 26m. I think my calculated avg damage was around 18-19m.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 13th 2013, 12:05 am

right on

its too bad theres no way to quantify the thresholds put in place by the devs. you know, how on the ^ and ^^ bosses everything procs frequently enough, then at the ^^^ bosses your lines proc's noticeably drop and then SRB comes around and you can dump 2-3 ammo to do 35mil when you were doing 30+ on the lower stage bosses with one can or you can just ignore them and hammer away at the ^^^ bosses hoping to keep up.

idk, i like your system, but it relies too much on the guys on the other end not being the crooks they are
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 21st 2013, 11:44 am

Apologies to everyone on Team 2 regarding my performance. I haven't even logged into FF to see where I ranked but I'm sure it's 350+ or so.

My son arrived home from basic for holiday leave on thursday and I have done nothing but spend time with him since.

Team 2 wasn't going for L's but I'm sure everyone dropped a few reward categories because of me.

Falling out of love with FF extremely fast and won't be participating in any events until after my son leaves, January 3rd so if anyone was counting on some extra rewards from raid to make res, or they just wanted the mercs, let me know and I'll compensate you all.

PS, Congrats to any FFF members from that may have ranked top 15.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 21st 2013, 2:03 pm

You are all good Dalti, we are happy to have you and understand not wanting to pour time into a non-competitive event to spend time with your son. Don't be a stranger, take a breather and come back casual Smile
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   December 21st 2013, 6:01 pm

No worries man. We all need a break now and then. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   January 5th 2014, 2:25 pm

Hey Guys... Just wanted to pop in and let ya's know I'm around again. Little Kev had his holiday block leave and even got a few extra days with us since his flight was cancelled. Another two weeks and we'll be in south Carolina for his graduation before he leaves for AIT.

A belated Merry Xmas & Happy New Years to everyone.
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PostSubject: Re: FFF Santa Raid Boss   January 6th 2014, 12:39 am

Welcome back Dalt!
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