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Nimey
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PostSubject: Procs predetermined   June 12th 2013, 3:30 pm

I have the following squad running through zone 10 again and again:
E.V.E 4.0 (13,498) E.V.E 4.0 (13,648) E.V.E 4.0 (13,498) CXB-2000H (10,434) E.V.E 4.0 (12,998)
As I noticed my bot doesn't proc at all the first 5 encounters I thought something was fishy and I started recording/ pay attention the single procs of the mercs. The first 3 runs in mind and 6 runs I wrote down and I can tell you if the run doesn't get disrupted by Anomalies or the Gatekeeper they are always the same for the first 5 encounters. 2 times the first five encounters were disrupted by anomalies and the pattern gets broken but the other 7 times the proc always looked like this:
E.V.E 4.0 (13,498) E.V.E 4.0 (13,648) E.V.E 4.0 (13,498) CXB-2000H (10,434) E.V.E 4.0 (12,998)
Wave
1 - P1 - - -
2 - P1 - - -
3 - P1 - - -
4 - P1 - - -
5 - P1 - - -

Bit fishy huh? Seeing the bot has 70% proc rate and E.V.E only 30%. I recorded the last 5 waves too but couldn't make out any real pattern yet (since most anomalies and gatekeeper happen at wave 6-10) although the procs itself repeat in special ways. A proc pattern that show up very often at wave 9/10 is this (A=attack, P=Proc):
9 A3 A2 P4 P1 -
10 A3 A2 P4 P1 -
A pattern where the bot didnt proc but position 3 proced didn't show up yet!
Procs are definetly not calculated by chances during this event. And if they aren't caculated at tower event, I doubt they are at other events.
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 12th 2013, 5:14 pm

I've noticed similar things in this event and past Tower events. I thought I was noticing something similar in the last raid event but it could just be paranoia.
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 12th 2013, 6:47 pm

Welcome to the light, boys.

I've had this same thing happen to me during daily PVP. I'll be fighting, say, my second match, when I'll get a network error that tells me I need to exit the game. However, even though the screen is still greyed out from receiving the error, I can still watch my squadmates continue the match and see who procs and who doesn't.

When the match is through, because of the network error, it won't tally the win, so I have to exit the game, restart it and then fight the match all over again...only to find that the moves of the match I have to fight over again, are exactly the same as the first.

So yeah, not random. At. All.
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 12th 2013, 7:45 pm

I'm not sure it is all intentional proc fixing. I think that it is more likely a lack of properly seeding of the random number generation for PVP and encounters/Bosses on maps.

Basically (for those who aren't programmers) there will be a function which you initialise with a seed (some number which can be time stamp based or use some crazy process to determine) and then when you call the function it will give you a "random" number.

So let's say you enter a Zone and as you enter the Zone, the seed that is stored is updated to the value 1. You go to the first encounter and the random function is initialised with the value 1 (from the seed). FF then generates a bunch of random numbers to see who procs and how much damage and then the battle is over. You go to the next encounter and the random function is initialised with the value 1 (from the seed). FF then generates the exact same list of random numbers as the first encounter because it uses the same seed and because the opponents are exactly the same the battle looks exactly the same.

But, what if the opponents are different? Assuming the seed hasn't been reset the battle will turn out different. If in the first 2 battles we assume the opponents all had opening buffing skills, but in the third battle they all have a 2 hit multi attack skill. What happens here will be that your team will buff itself identically, but, as the team no longer has any opening buff skills, the random numbers which were generated to determine if the opposition was going to buff itself are now used to determine if your attack skills are going to proc as you are going first (because you are super rich and have 3 fistas and 2 blue bots).

Then, on the way to the 4th battle you get a gatekeeper and the game decides to update the seed (because it's a new zone???) and now the battles will all be very similar from that point forward based on the new random seed.

That is my guess at what is going on with it and hopefully some of that made sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 12th 2013, 8:04 pm

whatever the theory is.... i dont care. i only care that my toons procs very less. its that simple:study:
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 12th 2013, 8:17 pm

See I am not sure that the complaint in PVP that in the higher streaks the proc rate is necessarily correct. I think what happens is that people don't remember when their team didn't proc at all and crushed a team of Fug Bugs just with auto attack on streak 1. People remember not proccing on streak 29 and getting wiped by a siren in the back row.

Someone needs to record what happen in every battle for a few 30 streaks - because I don't think it has ever been done and it would prove whether there is actually an issue in PVP.
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 12th 2013, 8:28 pm

dan,

Thanks for the lengthy and technical response. I think I understand what you're saying.

If this is how it works, or something similar to it, I could see how easy it would be to "throttle back" for lack of a better term, the proc rates of mercs for events like raid and PVP.

In regards to your latest post, I've actually tracked my proc rates in my head across a 30 streak because when you run 3 Fistas, a Swift Nox and a Tideslayer, it's pretty easy to see who procs and who doesn't. Plus, with the latest tweaks made to PVP, I'm now fighting all Lethal teams by match 3 or 4 (haven't seen a fug-bug since I don't know when).

That said, I have seen less procs the higher I go and now especially with the rival component they've added, I've noticed that if I lose a match, it's almost always on the third match of a PVP encounter, which is infuriating because, 1) you don't get your mag(s) reward AND 2) you blow through all 3 of your stored up mags that you've regenerated only to get zilch. I believe that's intentionally done so as to minimize farming as well.

Either way, when you're playing against the house that has no outside regulation or oversight to it, you're going to lose. Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 13th 2013, 1:05 am

i just posted about this in the events section.  it pissed me off, but i learned now.  if i get bad procs in the first battle, i just get out of there.
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 13th 2013, 3:26 am

I agree with danthepirate's explanation about lack of proper random number generation.

Sometimes I notice the same pattern of procing for all my fams for like 3-4 fights. If it's a winning pattern like 3 out of 5 procing, that's great. But the opposite is also possible.

And I agree with iirybackii's comments about "less procs the higher I go" and losing on the third matches.

I think the rates are arranged to make us spend more resources. We're supposed to go all-out attack on third matches Smile

I believe if you have a stronger brigade than your opponent, you are more likely to proc.
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 13th 2013, 12:15 pm

danthepirate wrote:
I'm not sure it is all intentional proc fixing. I think that it is more likely a lack of properly seeding of the random number generation for PVP and encounters/Bosses on maps.
Basically (for those who aren't programmers) there will be a function which you initialise with a seed (some number which can be time stamp based or use some crazy process to determine) and then when you call the function it will give you a "random" number.
So let's say you enter a Zone and as you enter the Zone, the seed that is stored is updated to the value 1. You go to the first encounter and the random function is initialised with the value 1 (from the seed). FF then generates a bunch of random numbers to see who procs and how much damage and then the battle is over. You go to the next encounter and the random function is initialised with the value 1 (from the seed). FF then generates the exact same list of random numbers as the first encounter because it uses the same seed and because the opponents are exactly the same the battle looks exactly the same.

But, what if the opponents are different? Assuming the seed hasn't been reset the battle will turn out different. If in the first 2 battles we assume the opponents all had opening buffing skills, but in the third battle they all have a 2 hit multi attack skill. What happens here will be that your team will buff itself identically, but, as the team no longer has any opening buff skills, the random numbers which were generated to determine if the opposition was going to buff itself are now used to determine if your attack skills are going to proc as you are going first (because you are super rich and have 3 fistas and 2 blue bots).

Then, on the way to the 4th battle you get a gatekeeper and the game decides to update the seed (because it's a new zone???) and now the battles will all be very similar from that point forward based on the new random seed.

That is my guess at what is going on with it and hopefully some of that made sense.

I didn't really get it or I got it and you misunderstood me. The seed should be reset when I enter a zone again right? But the procs are always the same with my setup (every run through the zone). For the fun of it I switch the bot with a Primarch and went through the zone - Voila different proc pattern. Next Zone start put in the bot again and same pattern again for the first 5 encounters.
1 - P1 - - -
2 - P1 - - -
3 - P1 - - -
4 - P1 - - -
5 - P1 - - -
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 13th 2013, 1:45 pm

Basically I think the script has a line of code that reads 'free players = jack shit luck so piss off to another game". Pay or die
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PostSubject: Re: Procs predetermined   June 13th 2013, 6:38 pm

The seed should be different for every battle.

The problem is that it doesn't seem to be changed for every battle and that no one knows what causes the seed to be changed or how the seed itself is created.

So you are saying that you swap a yellow bot with an opening skill with a primarch who also has an opening skill and everything changes, but then you swap it back and it's the same again?

If that is the case then it seems there a few different elements that go into creating the seed. Sounds like there is some constant (which is changed by some random events which are yet to be properly determined) which is combined with some other number based on your current team setup.

I am not trying to say for sure how FF works with its randomisations but I know a little about the general sorts of functions that are used behind the scenes to generate random sequences of numbers and am just trying to guess using the results of the testing being done.
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